CMYK vs.RGB

I'm saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I'm currently using a
consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer
(they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF
images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the
quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing
on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the
image?
Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

MikeD


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

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Thanks Mike!!
--
Ric Seyler
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GPL Handicap 6.35
ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net
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<blockquote cite="midX5vNg.400$6S3.116@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net"
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment :-) hehehe
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I've always used
Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?
Now my colors match very well, but I'm always up for a little more vibrant
colors. :-)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Results matter. If your colors are matching, keep doing what you're doing.
The Adobe sheetfeed profiles have been singled out in the past as
inaccurate. The coated sheetfeed profile reflects a higher dot gain than
the coated WEB profile. It should be lower. The uncoated SWOP and
sheetfeed profiles, appear to be bit for bit identical. This is another
obvious error.
</pre>
</blockquote>
Thanks Mike!!<br>
<blockquote cite="midX5vNg.400$6S3.116@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I hate
it when
someone"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I
use for full color > work have slightly different percentages they prefer.
such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Yes, type and line art should be pure K, otherwise registration problems
will cause color fringes. In an image, or in large areas of black, where
this fringing problem is unimportant, a somewhat darker black - called a
"rich black" - will generally give a slightly darker black, and a better
looking result.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="85">--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net">ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler">http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler</a>
remove –SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
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- H.J. Simpson
</pre>
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RicSeyler


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

Results matter. If your colors are matching, keep doing what you're doing.
The Adobe sheetfeed profiles have been singled out in the past as
inaccurate. The coated sheetfeed profile reflects a higher dot gain than
the coated WEB profile. It should be lower. The uncoated SWOP and
sheetfeed profiles, appear to be bit for bit identical. This is another
obvious error.
Yes, type and line art should be pure K, otherwise registration problems
will cause color fringes. In an image, or in large areas of black, where
this fringing problem is unimportant, a somewhat darker black - called a
"rich black" - will generally give a slightly darker black, and a better
looking result.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/


Mike Russell


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

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Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment :-) hehehe
You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I've always used
Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?
Now my colors match very well, but I'm always up for a little more
vibrant colors. :-)
And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I hate
it when someone
"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I use
for full color work have
slightly different percentages they prefer. such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.
--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35
ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net
http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson
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Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment :-)
hehehe<br>
You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I've always used<br>
Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?<br>
Now my colors match very well, but I'm always up for a little more
vibrant colors. :-)<br>
And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I
hate it when someone<br>
"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I use
for full color work have<br>
slightly different percentages they prefer. such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid0UYLg.16496$%25j7.16413@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net"
type="cite">
[probably re
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.htm"><http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.htm></a> ]
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">thanks a bunch Mike
going to try it out this weekend
My client decided to re-do her postcard design
Maybe now I can get those POP purples from her website to show up better
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Be careful using the wide gamut profile. It is designed to allow RGB folks
to edit temporarily in CMYK, without losing blues and purples that would
ordinarily get fried in the conversion from RGB to CMYK. The profile was
created by specifying fake ink colors in PhotoShop's CMYK setup. The result
looks good on screen, but the CMYK values will not work for real printing.
One way to keep impact in purples, when printing, is to move them toward
magenta, using the eyedropper in hue/sat or other means, trading hue
accuracy for saturation. Another trick is to add the complimentary colors
green and yellow to the rest of the image.
</pre>
</blockquote>
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Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net">ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net</a>
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RicSeyler


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

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Oh yea, sometimes you can have awful surprises when going from RGB to CMYK.
Going from CMYK to RGB generally isn't a problem though. I don't
remember running
into any noticeable color shifts from CMYK to RGB.
--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35
ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net
http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson
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<blockquote cite="midLolLg.47604$e9.42208@bignews4.bellsouth.net"
type="cite">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I'm currently using a
consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer
(they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF
images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the
quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing
on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the
image?
Thanks for any assistance.
Mike
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">CMYK is typically only used for output to a press. Most printers, even
"professional-level" inkjet plotters such as the Epson 7600 or 9600 (24"
and 44", respectively) still take RGB images as input, even though they
use a variation of CMYK inks.
IF you had a specific printer in mind, you could take a look at what its
documentation recommends, but even if the answer is CMYK, you can
convert your documents from RGB to CMYK without a catastrophic loss in
quality or range. In fact, I believe changing color modes is lossless,
whereas changing color profiles is not.
Anyhow, that's all I know.
--
Aaron
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->I have had a couple of really sad CMYK conversions from RGB
most especially majenta or other bright saturated colors on a monitor won't
convert well to CMYK
I had websites then had to get print materials to match from the artwork
Normally if I know the job will output for CMYK print shop I start the file
in CMYK.
Have not tried the reverse CMYK print job to website.
I do not have InDesign.
my Epson R1800 uses the RGB files
</pre>
</blockquote>
Oh yea, sometimes you can have awful surprises when going from RGB to
CMYK.<br>
Going from CMYK to RGB generally isn't a problem though. I don't
remember running<br>
into any noticeable color shifts from CMYK to RGB.<br>
<blockquote cite="midLolLg.47604$e9.42208@bignews4.bellsouth.net"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="85">--
Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net">ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler">http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler</a>
remove –SPAM- from email address
--------------------------------------
"Homer no function beer well without."
- H.J. Simpson
</pre>
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RicSeyler


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

....
[re converting web image to CMYK]
This is great - you may be able to convert the layerd file to CMYK, and deal
with the lettering, etc, separately, but I think it will be less work use a
flattened version of the original and use either Hue/Sat or curves to clean
up the colors.
The main thing about trap is to remember to do it - it's Image>Trap.
I think it looks great - there are several items integrated into it. Not an
easy job, and perfectly appropriate for the customer
I tried to remove cyan to get a brighter magenta color. You may want a
bluer shade of magenta than I did. Pure magenta is the same color as bubble
gum. CMYK(0,100,0,0) will be the most intense magenta physically possible.
The numbers are definitely a good reference, probably better than what you
see on the screen. Drop a sample point on the spots whose color you want to
control. The final appearance will not match the spot color, though. If
you really want the colors to be spot on, then you'll also want to run a
proof.
You would use convert to, but I'm not sure you want to for this purpose.
The problem with this profile is that it won't work for printing, since it
uses inks that don't exist in the real world.
As for the blacks, you can make them pure black while in RGB mode, and then
just go with whatever CMYK value Photoshop gives you. The black value the
printer gave you is way conservative - 170 or so - and I would not take that
as gospel, particularly since this artwork is so dependent on black. If the
printer is easy to talk to, see if they will reject a black of 300 percent.
They may want to keep the dry times down.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/


Mike Russell


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

Thanks Mike
I will try some of your suggestions
I do have ALL the original art in layers as PSD at high res in RGB (not
animated)
so I can start with a clean file
and I can edit each layer independently (except the black and white
background)
the text has a layer style to make the colors
I never did trapping or "fixed my blacks" to the proper CMYK before.(I am
not an art director dammit!!!) (how did my retouch work turn into this
nightmare?)
I know the artwork is a bit cheesy but I made it to my client's specs, and
she does LOVE it. Most especially she LOVES the colors.
the file you sent the pinks are there and way better than my conversion
which eliminated them but they look very reddish/orangey pink and not
magenta
the blue-violet is better for sure
if I have the number values from the file on the web (#54874) can I just
write those in or select -pantone colors by the numbers instead of trying to
manipulate them manually by eye??
I downloaded the wide space CMYK, I can only see it listed under convert
to...
is it supposed to be under image>mode> as a selection?? or I am supposed to
use convert to?


KatWoman


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

A CMYK version of KW's image is located here:
http://mike.russell-home.net/tmp/KW.psd
One way to open it is by pasting the URL into Photoshop's Open dialog.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/


Mike Russell


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

....
The magenta/pink on black lettering is not a problem. Just make sure that
is CMYK(0,100,0,0), and do the usual trapping, and you're set for the type.
There are at least three issues with the Logo. Two are easy, and the third
one you may need to just punt.
The first problem is the blacks - this is each to fix before the conversion
with curves - before the conversion to CMYK, move the black end of the RGB
curve until you get a solid, pure black background RGB(0,0,0). Keep a copy
of the original RGB image for reference, and convert the logo to Web Coated
SWOP v2.
The second problem I see is that after converting to CMYK, everything drifts
toward the same dark blue-purple. This makes it hard to tell the magenta
from the dark blue in the logo. The blue of the eyes is OK. It's the
magenta that moves toward the blue, being contaminated by cyan during the
conversion process. Luckily, this is pretty easy to fix. Convert to CMYK,
create an info point on an area that needs to be pure magenta, open up the
Hue/Sat dialog, select Magenta in the drop down list, click on something you
want to be pure magenta (the upper part of the 'l' in Shiela), and move the
hue and saturation sliders until you get a visual approximation to the
original. I made it a little more saturated than the original, more toward
pure magenta. This will make the silver thread in the logo turn purple,
which you can fix later with the sponge tool.
The third problem is one you will probably just have to punt. The image is
a GIF file, and instead of continuous tones, you've got dither patterns for
many of the colors. Combine this with the halftoning of the print process,
and you may get some very nasty patterns - ragged edges on letters and so
forth. So it would be better if you had the original art. If this is a
re-do, look at the results with a magnifier to get an idea of how serious a
problem this really is. The solution is to re-do the line art and lettering
manually, and perpahs use the blur tool on the face, bling bling, and other
details. The idea is to get rid of all of the tiny dots from the original
gif image, so that they will not degrade the half toning of the final print.
No - you don't need Illy for this. There is some line art, but a lot of this
image is continuous tone.
That's the problem - the dark pinks are being moved toward blue. You can
address this by using a more pure, light pink with magenta and no cyan. I
think you can get some good, solid pinks by moving toward pure magenta, with
your other main color being dark blue. The trick is to keep the cyan at or
close to zero for the pure, bright pinks, and add cyan only as you move
toward dark blue. The eyes should probably be as bright and pure a blue as
you can manage.
Since there are only two critical colors - magenta and dark blue - you may
be able to wing it without a proof. but the added cost is entirely your
decision and your client's. The most important color in the logo is pure
magenta, which is going to be easy to achieve. Add a little cyan, and you
move toward a darker blue. I think the drama of the image will be preserved
if you get two distinct tones, plus the silver thread.
There are also trap and choke issues that you are probably aware of.
Registration of the plates is never perfect, and you may get colored margins
around some of the line art and printing.
190 percent is a very light black, and I'd recommend that you break this
rule, blacks being so important to your image. Newsprint can take 250
percent, and coated stocks 300 percent or more, so you can go heavier than
this. This is controlled by setting your GCR and percent inks in the CMYK
setup, followed by fine tuning with curves after the conversion t CMYK,
using an info point to check the amount of each ink.
This is not really relevant to your image, which is mostly color. The
silver thread can be a mixture of CMY - it might even pop out of the image
better if it had a slight warm tone.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/


Mike Russell


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

well I do need to print it
I cannot get the colors to work for CMYK at all
this page has the website
I need postcard and business cards to match it
www.XXXsheilabarishvoiceXXX.com
remove xxx's
do I need Illustrator for this? I don't have IN DESIGN
In Design?
I have seen these colors or closer than dull purple in print so there must
be majenta ink
and violet.
On inkjet I can at least get vivid dark pink..
I have to re-do this job
and I have to find out how to do this for the future
I keep getting these print jobs after the websites are designed
this is from the printer specs http://www.pkgraphics.com/jobspecs.asp
Job Specs ATTENTION, IF YOUR JOB IS COLOR CRITICAL!
If your job is color critical you "MUST" request a Match print® Color Proof
along with your job. Match print® Color Proofs are not included in our
prices. Color is extremely subjective, if you waive your right to a color
proof, we will match color to the best of our ability and will rely solely
on our judgment.
GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS
1.. Files must be saved in CMYK format.
2.. All solid Black areas should be composed as a combination of CYAN 50%,
MAGENTA 20%, YELLOW 20%, and BLACK 100%.
3.. If your job needs to be in grey tones, you must have no "CYAN,
MAGENTA, or YELLOW" in your channels. A perfect grey would be:
CYAN= 0%, MAGENTA=0%, YELLOW=0%, and BLACK= 50%.
If you need a grey to be lighter or darker, it would be determined by the
amount of black you add to your black channel.


KatWoman


Re: CMYK vs.RGB

Hi Again.
I am having some problems, so if anyone wants it, could you Email me at
roy@ayrphoto.co.uk and I will send it.
Roy G


Roy G


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