Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

I noticed a few changes on the Leica web site yesterday. They are now
touting their digital module for the R9 reflex camera.
The thing looks like a monstrosity!
The digital module is 10 MP--hardly anything to write home about. I can
certainly understand using Leica lenses on fine-grained film in order to
achieve superior resolution. But I am not convinced that Leica R lenses
used in conjunction with a 10 MP sensor supplied by Kodak is going to result
in a significant margin of image superiority over, say, Nikon or Canon
DSLRS. I like the full-frame design of the sensor, but I can only imagine
how much it will cost . . .
The proof of the pudding is in the images the camera creates. I have the
suspicion that the results will not justify the presumed astronomical price
for this camera.
http://www.leicacamera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_578.pdf

Jeremy


Re: Leica R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:45:04 +1200, Bystander
<snip>
Most of those problems were fixed to at least some degree in the
followup Pro SLR/n - I bloody well hope so anyway, I've just bought
one on ebay!
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'


Mike Ross


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

Old computers in trash? Pick a window - you're leaving! :-)
See: http://www.corestore.org/compute.htm
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'


Mike Ross


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

That's a good idea, and probably the best way to do that would be to bring
two bodies. Each loaded with a different film. Any professional worth his
salt would do just that.


William Graham


Re: Leica R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

In article <MPG.1f28c0f217c4f1cb98b0d0@news.supernews.com>,
I can't see it myself. I'm using a Kodak DCS Pro 14n, a now-discontinued
full-frame sensor DSLR that uses my old Nikon-mount lenses.
The 14 megapixel images it produces contain appreciably more
information, as expressed in detail, colour, brightness range and so on
than the old Kodachrome 25 slides in my library that I produced with the
same lenses. They will reproduce excellently on A4 glossy magazine stock
with as fine a screen lpi as you want.
My conclusion is that about 10 Mpixels are enough to equal best 35mm
quality; a stock library that wouldn't accept less than 12 Mpixels would
presumably not want to keep any of its 35mm back catalogue.
Okay, there are stock libraries that only have medium format or larger
images -- but for them 16 Mpixels wouldn't be enough.
My main anxiety about the Pro 14n, incidentally, is whether or not the
batteries for it will still be available for the life of the camera. Use
it in the right circumstances and the results are great -- but issues
like slow startup, horrid noise levels in low light and surprising moire
effects -- you wouldn't get that with Kodachrome -- easily justify the
camera's discontinuance.
--
Bystander


Bystander


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

In article <1153326865.958095.25390@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Hmm... actually, I think he'd probably get much better results using his
particular exposure technique with slide film than he would with Tri-X,
for example (isn't Tri-X in a Leica a classic photojournalist
combination? But if you expose Tri-X for the highlights you'll get
black, empty shadows no matter how long you stew your film in HC110.)
I sympathise with your exasperation thought -- what somebody who knows
so little about film and exposure is doing with as nice a camera as a
Leica M7 is baffling. When I had a rangefinder camera (a Nikon S3, which
burglars relieved me of in the 1970s) I bought a spot meter to go with
it.
--
Bystander


Bystander


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

Hi Gordon,
I haven't commented because I only know one person with a Mamiya 7. He
dropped the camera and it needed the rangefinder re-calibrated, but
that was hardly a surprise.
They are extremely expensive compared to the Cosina-made lenses.
Whether they are worth the price, time will tell.
$3800 is a lot to pay for a 15mm Distagon. The Voigtländer 15mm f/4.5
costs $345 and the optics are extremely good for the money. It has
particularly good control of vignetting, the great bugbear of lenses
in this focal length range. I cannot imagine that the Distagon is
sufficiently better to justify costing ELEVEN times more!
$2760 is a lot to pay for the 85mm f/2. The Leica 90mm f/2 APO ASPH
actually costs £265 LESS. It is probably the best f/2 lens ever
produced in the 85mm-105mm focal length range, regardless of brand. I
cannot imagine many people opting for the Zeiss lens.
.... or Zeiss will stop making them.
I have had problems with one of my M7s, but these were issues related
to (1) a known design fault on the DX coding reader, now replaced with
a different design, and the LED speed display in the viewfinder, where
two segments failed. Otherwise, both M7s have been completely
reliable. My M3 is also reliable, but it had a full service including
new shutter curtains just before I bought it.
That's true. But there is a certain irony in Voigtländer and Zeiss
lenses being made in the same factory - in Japan!
Agreed. I use a Metz 54 MZ-4i with the M7s and the slow-synch TTL
auto flash is very good indeed.
Those self-timers that screw into the shutter release are handy, but I
agree I would prefer one built-in.
Perhaps the M Digital will have one?
;-)



Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

Hello Tony,
Okay, now that makes more sense. I agree with you on that one.
.. . . . and apparantly the Mamiya 7, with a few too many people
reporting the rangefinder going out of adjustment.
I don't think the Zeiss lenses are any more overpriced than Nikon nor
Leica, nor any other manufacturer. Manual focus lenses seem like they
would be more expensive to produce than some autofocus lenses. Of
course, I know many photographer (you likely do as well) that needed
service on their autofocus lenses. I think the pricing is more of what
the market will bear, rather than a true calculated profit margin. If
people don't buy these things, then prices will go down.
Good deal. I have never even seen one between California and Texas.
This sounds a bit like the film flatness issue Erwin Puts use to write
about with the Konica Hexar RF. Just for a funny comparison, my ultra
cheap Yashica GT rangefinder has probably the worst film guide and
transport mechanism I have seen, yet I can manage some technically good
images using it. I think a bigger question with these cameras should be
longevity. A heavily used Leica seems to average around nine (9) years
between service. Perhaps of interest is that the film transport
mechanism is what failed on my M3.
I recall similar criticism directed towards Kyocera and Yashica. It is
too early to tell. The history of Voigtländer in the 1970s was far worse
than what Kobayashi-san has done.
I have a few disappointments with the Zeiss Ikon. One is the lack of
intergrated flash control, something that the Konica Hexar RF also
lacked. While I use predominantly manual flash control, there are times
that TTL can be very useful. The other thing is a lack of a self timer,
though the modern Leica bodies also lack that; this is an item that can
be useful in slow shutter night shots. Oh well . . . . . . .
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>


Gordon Moat


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

I can understand people buying and using Bessa bodies. I have a Bessa
that I use occasionally. But I think you have missed my point.
My point is that the Zeiss Ikon is little more than a Bessa with a
different outer casing and a better viewfinder. But it costs twice as
much as a Bessa without being any more robust in use. Whether the
outer casing is plastic or metal is immaterial - in each case, the
film transport and shutter are pure Bessa. So save 50% of the cost of
the Zeiss Ikon and buy a Bessa!
I would happily recommend a Bessa to an light user who took care of
his/her gear, or to a heavy user who took risks and needed to be able
to buy a cheap replacement - such as the skateboard shooters you
mention. The rangefinders need constant adjustment even if the camera
is treated with great care, which I would find intensely annoying. It
is yet another reason for me to avoid a Bessa.
In fact I have five Leica M bodies, two M7s, an M3, a CL and a Minolta
CLE. I tend to use the M7s with 24mm and 35mm lenses mounted, and
carry 15mm (Voigtländer) and 90mm (Leica) lenses in my bag. I
sometimes use the M3 with 50mm (Leica) and 90mm lenses - the 0.92X
viewfinder and accurate frame lines make 90mm shooting a breeze.
The point is that Zeiss did not initiate the project. Nor did Zeiss
drive it. They merely approved it, licensed it, took royalties and
offered two grossly overpriced German-made lenses.
Now the Hasselblad deal has failed, Zeiss, who have not marketed 35mm
cameras and lenses for over 30 years, have been forced to take over
distribution. That's how desperate the situation is.
No, Cosina did all the pushing! Mr Kobayashi of Cosina saw an
opportunity to make Zeiss lenses after Kyocera ended the Contax
licensing deal with Zeiss.
I don't think our views are very far apart. Also, I just bought a
brand new Konica Hexar RF with full warranty. ;-)
The casing is not the issue here. The point is that the film
transport and shutter of the Zeiss Ikon are no better than those in
the Bessas costing half the price. The Bessa mechanical parts do not
remotely approach Leica standards, and the Zeiss Ikon mechanical parts
are identical to these, despite costing twice as much.
On the contrary, a healthy used market strongly encourages people to
trade up to new.
What do you expect? It cost more than twice as much as a Bessa but
the only enhancement was the different paint that was sprayed on to
the body. You could do the same with a can of auto spray paint.
Frankly, I don't see why they should!
Not at all, but the vignetting is significant. I am referring in
particular to tests done by the highly respected Geoffrey Crawley and
published in "Amateur Photographer", but other detailed tests I have
access to (they are unpublished) have shown similar results.
I got out in time. <g> I am delighted that I chose Rollei over
Hasselblad for my medium format outfit.
I don't want them to fail. But we aren't talking about Zeiss, we are
talking about Cosina. Until Hasselblad were removed as distributor,
the Zeiss involvement was very tiny indeed.
Think of it as a franchise. Kyocera bought a Zeiss franchise, made a
lot of money out of it and finally gave it back. Now the franchise
has been sold on, and the new franchisee is Cosina.
I have no love affair with Leica (the company) or even with Leica
bodies. They are well made and mostly reliable, but have some
annoying features as a result of placing a higher priority on
tradition than overall usability.
What I do love is the Leica lenses, and as long as I can buy film and
find a body to use them on, I will be happy. I would just prefer that
the body would be something better than a Bessa. Whether it is called
"Voigtländer" or "Zeiss Ikon" makes no difference. They are all
Bessas.


Tony Polson


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

Sure it will, unless you're using spotmetering, as he was. To be clear,
I wasn't saying that modern cameras necessarily need more knowledge
than old, just that they potentially need more.
Yes, that is my point, it works reasonably well with centreweighted (if
the dynamic range of the camera is enough and the scene not too low or
high key) but not with spotmetering. Actually, I'll try to find the
thread later so you can enjoy it for yourself if you have a spare ten
minutes, as it must sound pretty incredible when I describe it.
I guess that is really the reason I don't use matrix metering (I tried
but compulsively checked the histograms after each shot). But how does
this apply to AF? I've never had a problem with placing the AF point on
the object I want in focus and locking focus there. This is because, in
contrast to metering, once I decide which point in the frame I should
focus on, there is precisely one correct focus setting (within the
system's tolerances, to preempt correction), and all AF systems I've
seen can find it (at least, better than my eyes can).
Or are you only talking about systems which also select which focus
point to use automatically?


Acl


Re: Leice R9 System Goes Digital--What A Monstrosity!

In article <1153512334.069930.189130@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Except for the reflectivity of the point you are measuring (which is
more less irrelevant if you are exposing for the highlights), I agree.
That sounds like something that might work. But it will work both with
old and with modern cameras.
Are you sure that he is using a spotmeter? What you describe sounds like
something that works well with center-weighted.
The problem I have with that kind of automation (whether matrix metering
or advanced AF systems) is that it takes a lot of experience to know when
the system doesn't work. Usually it works, but when do you find out that
the system got confused? When it is too late?
That's why I wrote 'people will' and not 'you will'.
--
That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
-- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency


Philip@ue.aioy.eu (Philip Homburg)


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