ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

Well, the CD versus negative storage longevity arguments are now put to
rest. Kodak have announced their new Gold Preservation CDs and DVDs.
Using pure gold reflective layers, phthalocyanine dye, and triple-layer
protection, they say the useful life of a CD is 300 years, and the DVDs
80 - 100 years.
Check:
http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html
Colin D.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ColinD


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

Unfortunately, "simplistic" is what you had been advocating...
Now that you are thinking about the problem a bit more, hopefully,
you're starting to realize that this retention issue isn't as trivial
as copying forward 5.25" and 3.5" floppies and so forth.
"Data isn't information any more than fifty tons of concrete is a
skyscraper"
- from "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts on the Information
Highway";
Clifford Stoll (paperback - 1996), page 194.
True, but irrelevant: how is today's retainer supposed to know what
data is going to be critically valuable to a relative or historical
researcher xxx years from now? The problem is that you're not
differentiating between data and information: we don't know what raw
data we have today that some futurist may want as valueable-to-him
information about how we lived, what things were like, etc.
Take for example, nature photography: photos from 50+ years ago can
tell us how large the tusks were on elephants in a particular country,
and comparing that to data from today, we can infer age, sex, climate,
effects of hunting, poaching, etc. All from one photo that was kept
even though it wasn't a keeper, because in that particular image, there
was something else that was caught in frame that was able to be a
measurement reference (an identifiable vehicle tire, a doorway, etc).
You still need to have a translating application that understands that
format that runs on today's hardware and today's OS. Since the
hardware and OS are constantly evolving, to maintain this application
is a constant resource drain.
Even if you're highly altruistic and write the translation software
code with each OS update and distribute it for free, what will happen
in 75 years when you're dead and gone?
File format is merely one step in the system.
Regardless of if the format is proprietary or open source, in order to
have the application software maintained to support it, it has to be
broadly adopted, and then remain as a very strong candidate for a very
long period of time so that the application is also maintained for a
very long time.
If we want to say that something like 8bit channel color space written
as a TIFF is "it", then what do we do when 16bit channels start to
appear ... like is currently supported in Photoshop and being adopted
by more and more photographers?
You can't rely on the big software houses to do this for you: there's
no money in it for them, which is why the current MS-Office won't open
the file I provided below. Hell, they aren't even interested in making
MS-Word's HTML format compliant with *current* HTML standards!
You have to have ALL pieces of the system survive, not just one or two.
This also applies to film, but film has simply not had the extreme
rate of change that digital has had over the past 20 years.
Ah, but the specific creator application is listed in the file. It is
after a handful of line breaks. From there, the researcher is expected
to go RTFM for that creator application.
BTW, I do see that 6 readers have taken a look at this file. So far,
no one has reported success.
As such, I'll provide a huge useful clue: it is MS-Powerpoint V2 for
Mac. Now you know to rename the file to put a .PPT on the end, and
you can start trying to open it in the correct creator application.
Piece of cake....eh, what do you mean it doesn't work? Gosh, go dig
around on your HD to see if you kept the previous revision of PPT.
Damn, it didn't work either. Go check to see if there's an even older
revision of Powerpoint over on that dusty old PC in the corner. Shit!
For an application still being sold from the biggest software company
in the world, we shouldn't be running into problems like this, don't
you think?
And damn...this file is *ONLY* 15 years old.
Oh, that's useful. Here's a similarly 'readable' digital photo; go
figure out the formatting:
11110011001011001010101101010001010110101001010100101010110011010000010101001010101010101010101010111100100110101010010100101000010100101100110101010100101001011001111110101101010110101011011101010101010101010101010010101010101111100110101010010100101010100101100110101010100101001011001111110101101010110101011011101010101010101010101011001011001010000101101010001010110101010101001010101100110100000101010010101010101010101010101111100110101010010100101010100101100110101010100101001011001111110101101...etc...
Without formatting knowledge, raw data is pragmatically useless.
-hh


-hh


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:44:27 -0400, Tony Verhulst <no@thankyou.com>
wrote:
If stored properly that acid free (archival print) paper will probably
last as long or longer than the digital media.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Roger


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:16:38 -0400, Tony Verhulst <no@thankyou.com>
wrote:
The dual 8" seimens drives on my C2-8P in the basement.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Roger


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

This means that they have to dig up all their time capsules every 20 or 30
years or so, and convert all their archival, "burieds" to whatever the
latest format happens to be at the time.....They might as well just keep it
in their living room.....:^)


William Graham


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

That's probably right, but it's simplistic to assume that simply copying
any file will enable it to be read in the future. If the file is
valuable, it should be converted to a universal format, as in simple
ascii a la Notepad or Wordpad. Saving a file that is in a proprietary
format isn't the best method. Similar reasoning has prompted Adobe to
promote their DNG file format, a hopefully universal format for all
digital images, as against CRW, NEF, and other manufacturers' formats.
A good example of why attention to the format should be part of the
archiving process. But, that file is still readable in Notepad, but of
course without any formatting.
Colin D. (note one 'L' in Colin)
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


ColinD


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

According to Tony Verhulst <no@thankyou.com>:
Well ... military equipment (I've worked with a *lot* of that)
tends to be sort of a cross between bleeding edge and
ultra-conservative. But the equipment is not made in the kind of
quantities which consumer goods are, so there is less chance that it
will continue to be made simply because of the large number of things
written/made for it. I'll bet that something made on consumer equipment
at the same time will still have a *few* surviving devices to play them
around. Let's see -- that would be around 1971, so it would be before
the Beta VCRs (which got killed by being out-advertised more than
anything else -- they *were* better than VHS in my opinion). About that
period, it was reel-to-reel.
Though there may be some custom cassette design for the military
which would be what was probably used -- and most of those recorders have
gone the way of surplus sales before anyone ever thought about reading
legacy tapes. :-)
I've found *one* reel-to-reel video recorder (which needs power
supply and batteries) in a quick eBay search -- but no bets what fits
it -- or whether it is worth repairing.
So yes -- finding something which will still play CDs or DVDs
300 years later may be difficult -- unless great care is made to
preserve them. If they turn out to have all the capacity needed,
perhaps they will keep being made for quite a while -- or they may be
replaced by some kind of solid-state technology any day now.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


Dnichols@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols)


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

You don't even have to go back that far, Tony: a current copy of
MS-Office is not backwards-compatible to all of the file formats
revisions that they have used.
The fallacy of this 'refutation' is that this carrying-forward task
costs time and money.
While spending the time/money isn't necessarily a significant burden
for the small percentage of total content that is obviously recognized
as of high value, this recognition - - and investment - - must
successfully occur every time that the data is transformed.
This means that when a record's value isn't immediately obvious each
and every time that the backups have to be done, the risk is that it
will be skipped (saves money) and thus lost. As such, the probability
of successful retention across time generally approaches zero.
Here's a simple bullshit test for Collin's claim:
http://tinyurl.com/g8bos
The above URL points to a MS-Office document that has been faithfully
"carried forward" onto newer storage formats, just as Collin says. The
challenge is to:
a) figure out the file format (Word, Excel, PowerPoint);
b) successfully open said file;
c) verify format is same as original (it is obvious);
d) show proof that you were able to do all of this (resave in current
version, etc).
I doubt that most of the people who claim that this archiving problem
is "sooooo trivial" will even get as far as step (c).
Instead, they'll simply adjust their tin foil hat and continue on their
merry way.
-hh


-hh


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

Since you won't be around 300 years from now, why worry?
Doug


Doug Robbins


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

Yes, many people and organizations have fallen into the same trap. The
BBC in England did the same, when they put the Domesday Book onto video
disk - big 12-inch metal platters - and never transferred it to more
modern media. One of the English universities took on the project of
re-building a reader for it.
Actually, one wonders how it could happen - surely those in charge of
archival data on various media would be cognizant of the potential loss
at the time. How they missed it is beyond me.
Yes again, I was sure you would have a hard copy, which would have been
needed to present your thesis at the time. We have no fewer than five
bound copies of our daughter's PhD thesis - three fat volumes per copy.
It's also on DVD, checked at intervals with Nero's CD/DVD Speed tool.
She finds that apart from the bound copies, she accesses the DVD
regularly as she does more research and expands on the original, so it
all doesn't have to be typed from scratch each time.
Colin D.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


ColinD


Re: ARCHIVAL CDs - 300 YEARS LIFE!

That is probably going to a bigger problem than bad media; closed and
forgotten formats. It's not enough to copy over the file to new media
every n years, if it is in some format turned obscure, you still have a
problem.
-peter


Peter


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